welcome to Sputnik with me George
Galloway and me Joseph hi it's standing
in for gaiety last week we would have
been celebrating the 60th birthday of
the late and incomparable commandant a
hugo chavez instead we continue to mourn
his loss kinley chavez when more
elections are referenda in few years
than any political leader in history but
that didn't stop us politicians and
media routinely referring to him as a
dictator his success our president
Nicolas Maduro has been carrying on the
traditions of Chavez and also of winning
elections but that hasn't stopped the
onslaught from the land of the free home
of the brave the United States of
America and just like in the Ukraine
that will be talking about later the
u.s. just won't take yes for an answer
at least a yes from the Venezuelans
joining us on board the Sputnik for the
first time is his excellency Alvaro
Sanchez the chargé d'affaires at the
Venezuelan embassy in London your
excellency thanks for joining us a
moment of reflection on the passing of
the great chief commandant a hugo chavez
would have been 60 years old this week
it's a cruel a young age at which he was
taken from us my wife and I worked in
the last presidential election that he
won handsomely he was a force of nature
unstoppable except nature and and
illness took him from us how are the
Venezuelans remembering who go Chavez
this week yeah well first George thank
you very much for having me in such an
important occasion as you mentioned this
would have been the 60th anniversary of
President Chavez well the legacy of
Chavez not only in Venezuela but
actually all throughout Latin America
new in the world is very very visible
this week for example we are currently
celebrating or commemorating the third
Congress of the PSUV the political party
that was a fun day was the idea of
President Chavez to bring together
different groups different trends or
from the less progressive movements etc
into one single political party and
this week as a matter of fact we we had
Arthur Congress it it was evident the
level of communication working together
of all the people that are actually
formed part of this organization this is
a political party and not only that but
also a Brazilian Maduro himself said it
in one of his addresses to the whole
party that from here on the political
party is going to actually participate
more in the indie dealings of the actual
government which is one of the legacies
of President Chavez to have grassroots
people actually operating and
participating fully in in government so
this is so it's not just a government of
technocrats but it's a government
popularly base exactly exactly said you
can tell that this is actually people's
power and as I said our political
tradition in Venezuela for many many
years not only the live the years prior
to the election of our Chavez in 1998
but even before then all throughout the
20th century we didn't have much
tradition in terms of actually having a
solid grassroots organizations and in
much less transforming those grassroots
organizations into political power
that's what Chavez perceived practically
from early on in his in his presidency
order popular exactly hear people's
power in transformed a tandem brought
those masses constructively into into
actually the whole governing process
unfortunately he passed away there are
many things that the popular people
power actually reach and we were able to
accomplish for example 30,000 communal
councils were set up in Venezuela and
they were fully getting the hang of
participating in government but this
level of participation that we're seeing
with with with the Congress that is
taking place in Venezuela PSUV Congress
it really went to a great positive step
as I said this was one of the major
dreams of President Chavez one of
President Chavez is election pledges in
that last election in which I worked was
that every Venezuelan would have a
dignified house by the end of his
presidential term is his successor
President Maduro committed to that and
what are the chances of that being
achieved I think is really really really
good to see that particular achievement
in the Bolivarian revolution
half-million social houses have been
built in Venezuela for the benefit of
the poorest people actually many of
those people lost everything they had in
the landslides that from the barrios
which is locked down the hillsides and
they've been rehoused exactly they've
been rehoused again half million social
house that means easier this easy to say
it but but think about I mean not many
countries not many societies have
accomplished such task in such cold and
again this was the idea the craft of
President Chavez in 2010 as soon as he
saw the unfortunate circumstances in
which many Venezuelans were in at the
time because of these landslides he
medial immediately set up a whole plan a
state plan operated to make sure that
this project was going to take place and
in fact a presser Maduro has not but
just continue with these fantastic our
programs are recently as recently as as
a few days ago many of you probably have
heard because the news and not in a
positive way but actually in a very
negative way in this country and in many
other countries have been writing and
informing about a process by which in
Venezuela we currently took residence of
an older building that were not in very
safe conditions and they were actually
taking from from those from that
edification called a tower david's tower
and they were actually moved into a
whole social housing companies at
dignified complex for these families and
children the media failed to recognize
that the
actually moved to to a housing comedy
concentrated on the fact that removed
exactly that's the media we have every
child in Venezuela either has or is
about to have access to a computer you
built more universities than any country
in the entire world these are fantastic
achievements of the Bolivarian
revolution president Maduro of course is
not Chavez nobody is Chavez how is he
doing in adjusting to the task of
filling the shoes of such a very great
figure as you said is not easy I not
only president Maduro but no one in
Venezuela would say no one in Latin
America and over in the world in oven in
the world I can actually fully feels
services shoes and I really don't think
that the Venezuelan population
Venezuelan voters are actually expecting
from Madrid to be a photocopy of Chavez
what they're expecting from Maduro I
think they're getting it which is
leadership command knowledge of the
situation I mean he's a very able man
very experienced man we said let's not
forget he's a worker I knew I knew him
from the days he was a bus driver we
were members of the same transport you
and that's one of the reasons why I was
break right goes to him when he was the
foreign minister yeah I mean obviously
present Chavez is legacies is known and
it's so famous and it's respected by
from his critics and fans what would you
say would be the one key thing obviously
in the capitalist society of here that
really could be a constructive lesson
learnt from from presidential ease well
that does a good point from an economic
point of view well i think in one of the
choices legacies is that he was able to
beat the capitalist system in their own
game what i mean by this when chavez
came to power and and and he immediately
said like well we need to certain things
need to change in Venezuela the state
needs to be more involved in the economy
there are certain industries and we need
to not
analyzed the social welfare system needs
to be strengthened immediately those are
people who know a lot about the economy
world why said well that sounds very
good but that's not going to work
economically and therefore you're going
to have lots of economic issues namely
you're not going to have growth in the
country well actually before Chavez died
we went through an average growth of 4%
well and this is something that no one
really expected taking into account that
Chavez had changed the rules of the
capitalist system in a way that was to
favor socially the masses of the
population the economy is the key as
Bill Clinton famously put it's the
economy stupid and whilst all other
things cultural and other foreign policy
things then as well as foreign policies
exemplary an example to the entire world
and so on but in the end it's potatoes
on the plate its production its
consumption goods and the shops and so
on then as well as still has some
distance to travel on that front yeah i
think we currently as a matter of fact
going through a major restructuring of
the whole state apparatus in the key the
aim and president Maduro has been very
explicit and and has worked very hard in
order to achieve is to make sure that we
continue to be socialist but at the same
time we need to be productive so so how
to do that is a process of our process
that has been in place that again
president is always thought about that
as well but let's not forget that well
you know about this much more than than
me is that from the kind of a colonial
legacy that Venezuela and Latin America
had for not just a few years but for 500
years and in our dependency exclude
exclusively on commodities in
particularly oil in order even though we
have been empowered ball even revolution
for 15 years in order to distinguish
elves from that critical and i would say
negative a past that still inflict
upon what we do economically and
otherwise nowadays it takes that quite a
long time we will know the consequences
of colonialism everywhere we're not an
exception so but waiting we have covered
a great deal of a great path and we're
currently in the process of us brasserie
Maduro set of making sure strengthening
the productive sector but still keeping
in mind that we're socialist nation well
it was said by very great Irishman Oscar
Wilde that right-wing people knew the
price of everything and the value of
nothing it's equally wrong though to
know the value of everything and the
price of nothing your excellency thanks
very much and we remember with solemnity
but also with joy the example of your
late president thank you very much for
joining us on the sputnik coming up
after the break we'll be looking at the
linguistics of conflict narratives who
are the militants and the extremists who
are the moderates and the government's
that need to be supported I promise you
you don't want to miss it we'll be right
back
I'll come back to Sputnik the
linguistics of conflict narratives has
always been a fascinating subject to me
and nowhere more so than at the present
in the wars currently being fought out
in Syria Palestine Libya the Ukraine etc
ukraine now in the Western narrative has
a government without reference to the
fact that it came to power by virtue of
a western-backed violent coup led by
self professed ultra-nationalist some
say neo-nazi elements who overthrew the
actual government that is the one that
had been elected by the people those who
refuse to accept the coup against the
government they elected have become
terrorists were stunned separatist
rebels at best the Ukrainian government
is now bombing its own people and that
becomes something we must support was
the Syrian government bombing its own
people become something against which we
must intervene ie bomb in serious
conflict al-qaeda type extremists are
rebranded as moderate Islamists except
when they cross into iraq at which
precise point they become extremists
again and so on and on and rather than
by over design this Orwellian
doublespeak seems to real interaction by
simple osmosis no minutes of a Cobra
committee meeting or during the
linguistic bombardments exist and
probably no such orders whatever given
no such meetings whatever convened it
seems there's no need to the media takes
an invisible q joining us to discuss
this is mamoun alabare see a linguistics
expert and also a respected analyst and
writer on many of today's battlegrounds
principally those in the Middle East
mamaan thank you very much for joining
us what lies behind the nomenclature
that's one of the points I want to get
to with you how do we decide what we
describe different actors in these
conflicts as right sometimes the same
act if we are in
favor of a certain government the same
act will be overlooked may be excused
may be given context if you see the
bombing of the UN school in Gaza for
example the the bombing itself is
condemned Israel wasn't condemned and
then we hear about something about Hamas
may have been placing rockets there so
once the you take aside the news itself
is presented differently whereas in
other places where the enemy is clearly
defined we highlight and repeat and
repeat the the ugliness of this enemy
everywhere where I would slightly
disagree with you it's is with regards
to the Al qaeda-inspired militants
they've always been presented as a
number one threat even in Syria now
everybody's talking about how those
militants coming from Syria they gonna
bombard the West security companies are
ringing that Bell the airports are you
know taking extra measures we're
anticipating more grooming of Muslims
and more spying on them more informants
the fact that they are in Syria hasn't
changed the fact that the the government
of President Assad is not an ally has
introduced the main focus which is on
anything that is Islamist so anything
that's Islamist even if it's elk you
know if it's anti-bashar if it's
Islamist then it's the number one enemy
it's the numberless the number one enemy
when it's comin yeah it's the number one
enemy when it gets back here but I was
trapped in a lift or he was dropped with
me with William Hague quite recently the
former Foreign Secretary and I i said to
him this you've been wrong all your life
but you've never been insane before now
the policy you're following in Syria is
actually insane not least because the
people you are encouraging with
non-lethal military aid and money and
political and diplomatic support to go
to Syria and overthrow the regime there
one day they'll come back here and I
asked David Cameron on the floor of the
house what's the difference between the
al Qaeda that were going to Mali to help
the French to kill and the al-qaeda in
Syria that directly and indirectly us
and the Americans are backing
well to be fair there are many groups on
the ground in Syria and the ones that
support are supported by the West I
supposedly the moderates are being
fought by al-qaeda the al-qaeda ones and
the iis ones who incidentally by the way
until recently is fighters have never
been engaged in a single battle with the
forces of Assad they've always lived
peacefully and even the the oil would be
sold from areas under Isis control into
acid so we have all width with strange
alliances the average Syrian who is
critical of the government of Bashar Oh
as a refugee has this conspiracy theory
that Isis is not just western-backed its
iranian-backed of course it's a
conspiracy theory but you can't you must
think an absurd one we've actually seen
the videos of Isis massacring huge
numbers of people but purely on the
basis of their Roger if a large number
of people think that way it means there
is some sort of different points of view
on the ground in Gaza Israelis are
killed whilst Palestinians die I have at
least 50 examples in the multinational
international mass media of descriptions
of pellet 20 Palestinians fifty a
hundred died today was one or two
Israelis were killed today killed and
died but the pursuit of tunnels and
militants in Gaza when seventy-five
percent of the people killed in Gaza
have been civilians and most of those
have been women and children nothing to
do with tunnels or militancy so where
does all this come out of just pure
political bias um yes and unfortunately
the narrative is shaped not by
politicians by the media who we know
it's you know owned by handful of people
with certain agendas so that's that's
really unfortunate but it's MIT as the
context the whole idea of occupation the
whole notion of resistance the whole
idea according to international law it's
allowed all of that is dropped out
nobody's really focusing on that but I
don't want to be here bombast in just
one side of the media I we must
acknowledge that majority of
international media with no exception
take one line or another and they have
this world view like let's say me and
you agree on Gaza and we agree on
Ukraine we don't have to necessarily
agree on Syria but there's been this
kind of line if you're at one station
you have one world view when it comes to
Syria to Gaza to a Palestine to Iraq too
and if you from the other side you have
another world view mmm and this looks
like different planets and if it's a
Martian watching you leave unfortunately
that's that's true although some
stations acknowledge and others deny me
the BBC for example calls other people
state broadcasters well is my itself is
the broadcaster but of course there was
that outrageous statement wasn't there
by what many would call one of the
world's top terrorist George W Bush when
he stated that there were states in the
middle east of the axis of evil how much
do you think that is such statement has
a legacy in today in terms of its impact
things have dramatically changed since
since then and remember that the these
states that even the people he would
call axis of evil me was North Korea
Iraq and and Iran today there is talk of
which permits approach went with Iran we
have an idea that the other states might
be cooperating with Iran to fight Isis
you have the Israeli joining in being
anti-isis everybody's become a friend
the Gulf states then a born enemies the
Gulf state is Isis because they they
pose an extremist point of view that its
claim to Islamic that aims to overthrow
them so everybody's happy to to to join
rocha Greeks have changed would you
agree with the suggestion that George
was suggesting that there were axis of
evil existed promit moods majority of
those countries he labeled was in the
Middle East would you agree with some
people suggest that this language is a
term very much set of cover half of this
kind of Islamophobia that we do of see
exist of course and this was you like um
I mean it's one of those a cartoonish
we're not presentation on things it came
at a time when hurting me was offering a
dialogue of civilization and he stopped
the the enrichment of uranium so he kind
of slapped this this gesture with with
more escalation and then we saw what
what happens with was Iraq was totally
unjustifiable and we're still paying for
the price for that
it's that flat that language as real as
the is the gravest case in point here we
continue to endlessly receive a
narrative that the Israelis are the
victims and the Palestinians the
perpetrators when we know and most of
the people watching this show know that
the opposite is the case that these
people in Gaza who are being bombed
remorselessly with nowhere to run
nowhere to hide are themselves eighty
percent of them refugees from Palestine
they were driven to Gaza and because
they continue to exist and resist by
existing they resist there are a mortal
threat to the settler control of their
land how solid in the media you're a
media man how solid is the Israeli
narrative the journalists and
broadcasters really believe it or
they're pretending to believe it I think
it's difficult they've grown accustomed
to a certain line which they've been
used to and it's difficult to change
what's happening though through thanks
to social media and other media outlets
they've been exposing what's really
going on so they've been caught of God
at one point that they continue with
this old-fashioned archaic narrative on
the other hand the youth the people who
follow social media have noticed there's
a different story going on we've
mentioned the one in Gaza for example
you say that all those the idea of a
conflict there is no conflict there is
an occupation there's a you know a
tremendous disproportionate use of power
there's no conflict between two equal
sides that's why I've got many people so
very much unhappy the way with him how
they mainstreamed you know media is
reporting things that's what people are
going at in the thousands in protest I
mean there was a protest against even
BBC coverage people you shouldn't
protest that you should be protesting an
atrocity you know but it's an extent
that you're going out and protest away a
certain channels is covering the event
it means many people are really really
fed up of that and and this is you know
thanks to social media and the
alternative that kept me no cash in in
that and they would you know fill that
niche
so people are aware luckily my moon
thanks very much thank you for helping
us through that thicket of
misinformation and now it's your turn to
tell us what you think through the
portals of social media what's rattling
Joseph well on the obviously anniversary
of President Hugo Chavez birthday OKO
pola says hookah travelers will be
remembered in the same light as Che
Guevara hero and Sue congela says a
legend che Guevara would have been proud
there is no easy walk to
self-determination anywhere absolutely
right and of course on the point of the
linguistics and how the terminology
affects the international community
sekonda says social media debunking
mainstream media lies media no longer
reporting news for playing politics I
think that the political class and the
media class are way behind the curve on
this they have not quite grasped how
momentous the change of paradigm is by
the impact of social media you know that
in the great two million march in 2003
against the war in Iraq it's very
difficult to find footage of it because
camera phones hadn't been invented yet
and just 11 years later everyone has a
camera phone everyone is therefore a
potential citizen journalist and the
citizen journalists can usually be
trusted more than the ones we pay to be
journalists that's what we've got time
for this week's which unfortunately
means that's the end of the show follow
us on Twitter it's arty underscore
Sputnik and of course on facebook its
Sputnik on Russia today but for me
Joseph hi it's goodbye I'm from me
George Galloway it's been marvelous